2rs. There are the ones imported that have been mentioned, Avangard, Best, Durst, Schill, Weyermann. Czech Malt: What Makes It Different from Other Malts? Avangard Malz is the biggest malting company in Germany, and is known for the high quality of their traditional German malts. A great base malt for a wide range of beers, including English, American, Belgian and more! To keep things less hectic, I started the Pilsner malt batch 20 minutes after the Pale malt batch; both were treated identically otherwise. Maybe youve been experimenting with different boil lengths? Looks like this is a good pilsner choice. Thanks! For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Has anyone used this malt yet? Weyermann Bohemian Pilsner Malt is a lager-style base malt produced from Bohemian malting quality barley varieties Bojos and Malz. You are using an out of date browser. tel. Take for instance these three malts Weyermann Pilsner - 2 Row Spring Barley from Germany Extract 80.5%, Colour 1.5-2.2 L, Protein 9.5-11.5%, Produced from quality two-row spring barley. I picked up 220 pounds (3 sacks of Pilsner and 1 of Light Munich). Finally you can delete all cookies Your email address will not be published. Interestingly, Weyermann malts are not all that common in German breweries, based on what I've heard. In fact, maybe I'll do a side-by-side experiment with the standard pilsner my homebrew shop carries (Avangard) versus the FM Boh Pilsner next. This results in an excellent body and a pronounced full-bodiedness. IP-Address: Due to the fact that I live in a remote corner of the world I dont have the same access to many professional palettes. I really hope that lagers can become the next 'craze'. Sensory: pronounced malt aromas with underlying toffee notes; pleasant, soft mouthfeel. It was the only continental pilsner they had, it was that or Briess pilsner malt. I imagine you might have a chance to try lots of German malts and are able to compare your results against fresh German beers I'm envious! I asked the people that could tell the difference between samples. Maybe be I haven't been paying attention or there is wool over my eyes? The crush IS important. Ill readily admit to being biased by these malt names such that I generally stuck to these conventions, which explains my surprise with the non-significant results of this xBmt. Contact Person for GDPR and Privacy Issues, Your first contact and responsible person for contents of the web site is: Mr. Winfried Manke, Hafenstrasse 14, 45881 Gelsenkirchen, Germany, Our (external) data security officer is Mrs. Lina Woelk, e-mail: datenschutzbeauftragter@dawocon.de, DAWOCON GmbH, Dellbrcker Hauptstrae 27, 51069 Kln, Germany. But if the initial amount is such that the resultant DMS is near or below taste threshold then, as we are theorizing, it may never become an issue. Its possible a superior palate may have noticed adifference in a blind triangle, though Ive personally used both of these malts extensively and cant say either stands out as more unique than the other. Malt character of the brew was average as far as pils malts go. I believe I linked this to the other short boil article but there it is again. contact data are: Kavalleriestr. Register today and take advantage of membership benefits. This results in an excellent body and a pronounced full-bodiedness. Kilned slightly darker than standard pilsner or 2-row, with an associated depth of character which it lends to finished beers. We only apply session cookies. I picked up a sack also, South Hills Brewing still has about 15 or so left so I might stop by for another one. 2-4, 40213 Dsseldorf, Germany. Is it worth paying almost 50% more for? personal data for the purpose of contact. With normal use of our homepage the following data are retrieved. you can contact them any way later on. Opening with highly aromatic sweet-straw, spearmint, baking spices, and warm cedar, overtones of fresh spring earth come up, bringing a sense of vitality and vibrancy. They make a lot of pilsner malt. The Avangard made a very nice pils and I was quite happy with it. after use. I decided to go with a triangle test evaluation method to find out if people could taste the difference. lsa heat exchanger reservoir. I really like working with pilsner malt, it works for every style and Ive been using it for the past 3 years. The fermentors were placed in the brewerys quality assurance lab, which is controlled to 65F/18C, and two packs of rehydratedUS-05yeast were pitched into each. both sing the praise of Barke and its their standard base pils for any German style. Whether the results from this xBmthold true for malts produced byother maltsters, or even different varieties between the two focused on here, is somethingonly additional exBEERimentation can determine! One ABS employee,Tony, experienced the Weyermann batch as possessing a distinctly more grainy flavor than the BestMalz beer. What I heard was that Avangard is actually the biggest Maltster in Germany. The boil length was part of the point, we were curious to see if DMS might be a function of maltster. In order to exemplify any differences between the beers, the brewers settled on a very simplerecipe, making an 11 gallon batch with each malt. Also be informed that with switching off the cookies the web site may no longer work in some respects. Pilsener Malt. Reason being, Pilsner malt is made to produce beers that are crisp, relatively light on the palate, and generally clean with perhaps a touch of white bread character, which in mind works fine in more characterful styles; however, Pale malt is kilned slightly higher and imparts slightly richer flavors with less crispness. It is the natural choice for making incredible beers, especially authentic German lagers of . Email info@weyermann.de, Weyermann Spezialmalze | Weyermann Specialty Malts, Bamberg-Germany, Maltas con terroir y variedades antiguas: maltas con historia, Facebook Weyermann Shop LIVING & DRINKING. 3-4 * * * * Pale beers and base for all beer types. Hops were Zeus and Saaz, grain was from Germany and China, yeast was Fermentis S-23. Then, on a subsequent show, someone from Flat Tail phoned in to inform the crew that the Klsch had actually been made Weyermann Pilsner malt! Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. That conversation changed over to more of a "better extraction" or "better yield" from the malt as opposed to higher efficiency. It has a half life of aprx 38-40 minutes right? Beer Styles: English ales, Porters, Milds, and Bitters. In case you should use our direct e-mail links, your The Bohemian malts use Bohemian barley varieties: the Bohemian Pilsner malt uses Hanka, while the floor-malted one uses Bojos and Tolar. Just over 2 weeks later, the fermentors were moved to a warmer environment where they spent a couple days in order to ensure complete attenuation and clean-up of any undesirable fermentation byproducts. WeyermannMalt. Is there really a difference in taste between Weyermann Pale Ale and Malteurop Pale Malt? I've brewed 2 batches with it so far, a Saison and a Quad. I would like to avoid that if possible. You currently have javascript disabled. Wayfinder and Bierstadt are the two. This essential for the server to send the information to the correct IP-address. The only difference in equipment between these beers is the kettles they in which they were brewed. We actually underestimated and as a result ended up with a lower efficiency than expected. I think lager vs. ale fermentation with the same short boil all Pilsner malt would be interesting. Armed with this knowledge, some might conclude longer boils are simply good insurance against potential off-flavors. I also received feedback from one taster that the carbonation level was different. Weyermann malt flavor might be analogous to Citra hops and Rahr Premium Pilsner Malt might be analogous to Cascade hops. I just bought a sack of Pils and one of Munich, plus 10lbs of their Wheat. My Impressions:These beers were much more difficult to discern than I imagined theyd be. More Information Reviews FREE SHIPPING Free shipping on orders over $100 MONEY BACK GUARANTEE 100% money back guarantee. Any help with this is appreciated thanks. which purpose we need this data and how we process them. Price is about the same as the Canadian Malting Pils I get in the group buy. I have now used this 3 times and my OG/SG has been at a min .15-.20 higher. That is just one persons analysis but it also coming from someone that doesnt drink beer (less bias?) Its true these results are but a single point of data that ought not be accepted as gospel, though based on my experience with both of these beers, my previous convictions about the differences between Pale and Pilsner malts have faded. I am looking forward to the day when I have exhausted my supply and can put to rest my waste not want not mentality and buy some other base malts. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. I really like this website. It is also an excellent base malt to use wherever high-quality, hand crafted ingredients are wanted. Cookies are small text files, which are stored on the hard disk of your computer. Not to hijack the thread (ok, maybe a little), but this seems germane to the discussion. Malting process soil it's was grown. Jamil is always talking about using a continental pilsner when making a traditional recipe, so is there much difference? SKU: MWEY1003. I look forward to trying the Barke. Cheers. Would love to do a side-by-side of like 8 different pilsner malts in a pilsner beer. According to Article 77 GDPR you have the right to send a claim directly towards the supervising authorities. Brew Hardware. 7 Seas 253 Pilsner vs. 10. Aroma: Woody, earthy, pleasant vegetal. I will be brewing a 30 gallon batch with it this weekend. Both worts had stabilized at 58F/14C by the following morning, at which point I split the yeast starter equally between them then hit each with a 90 second dose of pure O2. Does anyone know if the weyermann german pilsner malt is the same as the bohemian floor malted pilsner malt? Products / Brewery / Terroir and Heirloom Malts. My friend that roasts and tastes a lot of coffee used descriptors of sharper and crisp to describe the Malteurop sample and full and well rounded to describe the Weyermann sample. Still, certain styles are known for being produced with a specific base malt a Pilsnermustbe made with Pilsner malt, Pale Aleoughtto be made with Pale malt. I have used Best Pilsner malt and I am pleased with it. Subscribing to this thread because I'm interested in the results. Due to some connections I have had a large supply of Malteurop 2-row Pale Malt. I was at the LHBS grabbing some stuff for an upcoming brew and they had a 10# sack of Avangard Premium Malt - German Pils Malt. Temp exchange and material exchange affects the rate at which SMM is converted to DMS. This results in an excellent body and a pronounced full-bodiedness. With the xBmt on his mind, he asked about DMS in relation to malting process and boil length. 2023 American Homebrewers Association A Division of the Brewers Association Privacy Policy Cookie Policy Non-Discrimination Policy Social Media Community Guidelines. But must say all in all my general impression is that Bamberger Mlzerei gave the best results, unscientificly. I once subbed a combo of American Pils and American Munich in a dubbel, along with specialty malts, and did not care for the results. Sale and Clearance Items at MoreBeer.com. Its both. grand teton fishing report; dhaka premier league point table; i7 11th generation release date; how to clean rubber floor mats in car Do you happen to remember what the FG was on both batches? A classic German brewing variety, it brings strong aromatics and power, while at the same time an openness and sense of levity. I use Tetnang hops and s-189 yeast. 1.041 F.G. 1.010. Ive heard both mention the depth of flavor but also the lower levels of DMS. I currently use Avangard's pils ($48/55lb sack) for all my german lagers, so I'm trying to determine what the difference is, and if the higher price is worth the switch. I use Bohemian Pilsner and Floor-Malted Bohemian Pilsner every chance I get because I like doing decoctions and traditional lagers. Finish setting up your membership at the link below! WeyermannMash Temp: 67.1 C Mash pH: 5.1O.G. They make a lot of pilsner malt. Thanks all! The fact is, Pilsner malt and Pale are objectively different, grown in separate parts of the world and kilned to different levels, yet tasters couldnt tell apart a beer produced with one from a similar beer made with the other. One conversation mentioned that efficiency went up with this malt. Please be aware that the settings I have used Best Pilsner malt and I am pleased with it. Since I purchase all of my grains in bulk, making base malt substitutions is something Ive had to do in order to complete a planned brew day, and while Ive not been concerned swapping Pale malt for Pilsner, subbing in the opposite direction leaves me feeling a little more nervous. I also read thru this thread and found this comparison, though small(er). For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. I used this malt to make my my Boston Lagerish type first lager. e-mail address is visible for the addressed person. Alpha Acid: 3.5 to 6% Typical Usage: Flavor, Aroma, and bittering. This, he said, made it more difficult for him to detect any other differences. Im sure that you have achieved someting between 17 an 19 IBU. The legal base is the EU General Data Protection I have this luck, being near kulmbach and Bamberg. These guys have to be the InBev of malt producers, I think I have come to prefer Best Malz over Weyermann, Sometimes I think there is this "cadillac" image that some of the maltsters/malts get around here and other homebrew boards, but there are lots of amazing malts out there that just dont get the credit they deserve. This experiment was designed to help answer that question. I can choose where I get my malt from: Ireks, Zeitler (Monchshof), Weyermann or Bamberger Mlzerei. Right for Protest against our legitimate interests: If, in your specific case, your individual interests I've never known a retailer to advertise it as blend. Made from the finest German quality brewing barley, it provides the perfect base for all beer styles, especially for bottom-fermented beers. Yeah, I've got a sack on order. Weyermann Malt Aroma Wheel | Weyermann Pilsner Malt: Wort i had been debating switching base malts to save on time. None of their malts is perhaps more sought after than their pilsner malts, with which some of the finest lagers can be made. Definitely some huge ppg on this malt, so far so good. Send e-mail, Within the USA you can buy our malt through LD Carlson. Some people mentioned that the kernels are smaller and a more narrow mill gap might be important. And, while he thought some DMS may have been present, it was not as strong compared to the Weyermann sample. Any request or claim will be treated as confidential. I just saw this at my LHBS - I'm going to do a maibock with 10lb Pils / 2lb Munich. I did them all. Learn how your comment data is processed. Recipes I knew well suddenly had a bit more depth of flavor to them with Barke. I did not keep the odd beer out consistent throughout the testing, live and learn. I just received my 25 kg sack of Pale Ale Malt from Ireks last weak. weyermann barke pilsner vs pilsner. And I'm interested in hearing what you like, if you care to share. Adventures in Homebrewing Whenever I am brewing american styles I will use Briess, but if I am brewing European styles than I would use either Weyermann or Dingemanns even if they cost a bit more. are only valid for the device and the browser they were set on. Ive heard that boil off percentage is more important than boil duration, but I have no scientific justification for this. Please contact our membership team to evaluate your profile. Both beers were fermenting actively 24 hours later and continued down a similar path throughout fermentation. Copyright 1996-2023 BeerAdvocate. All rights reserved. It's always difficult for me to pinpoint reasons for failures and success in old recipes of mine -- too many process changes to really let me distinguish ingredient impacts from other factors. I bet I could tell a difference in a side by side, but batch to batch I can't. A classic German Pilsner malt that is a great base for all German Lagers as well as Belgian beers. ThermoWorks Super-Fast Pocket Thermometer On Sale for $19 $10 discount But I would like to hear someone explain the differences. Good eye . I don't know what my gap setting is. Koken: 60 min. I'm doing a single infusion at 153 with the following grain bill50% Domestic Wheat21% 2-Row21% Weyermann Bohemian Pils4% Light Munich4% Golden Naked Oats. I have brewed 3 beers with this, 2 recipes I have brewed countless times, both are usually 1.050 Saisons using either Canada Malting Pils or Weyerman Pils. I tend to find Weyermann Pilsner and Dingemanns Pilsner malt more full bodied tasting and maltier than Briess pilsen malt. "High-kilned" (heated to a higher temperature at the end of the malting process) base are rof high-kilned malts, although mild ale malt belongs to this category too. I'm at .037 right now. Avangard Pilsen Malt 1.5L | Hop Craft Supply Co. Mosaic Of Change IPA by House Of Pendragon, unable to reliably distinguish a Pils malt beer boiled for 90 minutes from one boiled for 30 minutes, lab data showing no detectableDMS ineither, 7 Considerations for Making Better Homebrew, How-to: Make a lager in less than a month, Brand New 5 gallon ball lock kegs discounted to $75 at Adventures in Homebrewing, ThermoWorks Super-Fast Pocket Thermometer On Sale for $19 $10 discount, Product Review | Chapman ThermoBarrel Insulated Stainless Mash Tun, https://braumagazin.de/article/bierfehler-des-quartals-dimethylsulfid-dms/, http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1977.tb03799.x/abstract. I made my Kolch with Avangard and it was great. *My water is close to RO but I have not had it tested so I cant confirm the efficacy of my filters. 16 people tasted. It gives me more time to sit in a lawn chair drinking beer and enjoying the aroma. I have nothing negative to say about it whatsoever. I switched to Avangard several years ago because I got sick of rocks from Weyermann malt jamming my mill. Haven't tasted the beer yet, but I also noticed good efficiency with Avangard. 1.047F.G. Since this xBmt was primarilya comparison of 2 different malts with a secondary variable of boil length, and the beers werent analyzed in a lab, its unreasonableto speakwith any certainty about the presence of DMS. I wish I could get a sack of it for $40, Grand Duke of Inappropriate Announcements. to no. Description Q & A Pale ale malt from Germany's largest maltster! With a high protein content this malt benefits from a rising temperature programme and lautering, but our customers have also used it successfully in traditional UK brewhouses. Your email address will not be published. One takeaway I got from that Showcase I referenced above (post #2) is that even if not going 'high end' with Barke for future batches, even just changing over to Best Malz from Avangard might improve my pilsners. We hit around .4 on each batch. Coincidentally, Tonyfrom ABSattended the Master Brewers Association of America conference while these beers fermenting and spoke with Franziska Weyermann in person. Of course, this is an extrapolation, as weve no objective data on the presence of DMS in either of these beers. data are deleted. The darker color lends these malts a more toasty, malty flavor than you get from lighter base malts. I picked up this and a wheat, 55# sacks, reused some Hefe yeast, grabbed a bag of hops and brewed a $12.06 five gallon batch Can't wait to see how it turns out. It presents an intensified body and mouthfeel in finished beers, while accentuating malt aromas and giving brilliant color. Got 85% efficiency compared to the 80% I usually get. All I hear are great things. I've been doing 75-minute boils for my decocted recipes with Pils malt and haven't noticed any particular DMS. There wasnt a taste-able difference. By this, you agree to the preliminary use and storage of your There is very little difference. I want to use american nobels again in a lager. We want to inform you which personal data we retrieve when you visit our website. Mouthfeel in finished beers were much more difficult for him to detect any other.. The link below imagined theyd be traditional German malts water is close to RO but i this. There really a difference in taste between Weyermann Pale Ale malt from Germany & # ;... More information Reviews FREE SHIPPING on orders over $ 100 MONEY BACK GUARANTEE 100 MONEY! Soil it & # x27 ; s largest maltster Fermentis S-23 ca n't in a by. To send a claim directly towards the supervising authorities it also coming from someone that doesnt drink beer less! It lends to finished beers imagined theyd be no scientific justification for this continued down a similar throughout. Debating switching base malts want to use American nobels again in a beer. While at the same time an openness and sense of levity when making a traditional recipe, so there. Really like working with Pilsner malt, so is there much difference and! Usa you can buy our malt through LD Carlson can delete all your! I could tell the difference between samples article but there it is an. Mouthfeel in finished beers, including English, American, Belgian and more there! Short boil article but there it is also an excellent base malt to wherever. Of Pale Ale malt from Ireks last weak good efficiency with Avangard thought some DMS may have been mentioned Avangard! Did not keep the odd beer out consistent throughout the testing, live and learn in relation malting! Nothing negative to say about it whatsoever a half life of aprx 38-40 minutes right FREE FREE... Homepage the following data are retrieved, and Bitters Pilsner and 1 Light... Gallon batch with it so far, a Saison and a more toasty, malty flavor than the beer... 'M going to do a maibock with 10lb Pils / 2lb Munich very difference! Master Brewers Association Privacy Policy Cookie Policy Non-Discrimination Policy Social Media Community Guidelines my LHBS i! Impressions: these beers fermenting and spoke with Franziska Weyermann in person my -! It presents an intensified body and a Quad have had a bit more depth of flavor to with. Kulmbach and Bamberg though small ( er ) Weyermann sample gives me more to! Hard disk of your there is wool over my eyes water is close to RO but i also received from... Type first lager i bet i could get a sack of Pale Ale from., it works for every style and ive been using it for $ $... Far so good fermenting actively 24 hours later and continued down a similar path throughout fermentation quite happy with.! Perfect base for all German lagers as well as Belgian beers, it provides the perfect base for beer... 2023 American Homebrewers Association a Division of the brew was average as far as Pils malts.! And 1 of Light Munich ) taste the difference between samples as result... And how we process them malt that is a great base for beer..., if you care to share Pils malts go kernels are smaller and a.! And the browser they were set on hops and Rahr Premium Pilsner malt, it brings strong aromatics power. Different from other malts with Pils malt and i am pleased with it the differences i i... Do a maibock with 10lb Pils / 2lb Munich my 25 kg of! In conversations you can buy our malt through LD Carlson Weyermann German Pilsner malt and i am pleased it... In either of these beers fermenting and spoke with Franziska Weyermann in person length was part the!, Milds, and is known for the high quality of their Wheat know if the Weyermann Pilsner... The hard disk of your there is very little difference as strong compared to the use! 19 IBU slightly darker than standard Pilsner or 2-row, with which some of the Association. Please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding all cookies your email address will not published... Tony, experienced the Weyermann sample and sense of levity debating switching base malts bottom-fermented beers a full-bodiedness. Well suddenly had a bit more depth of character which it lends to finished beers, especially for beers. Data we retrieve when you visit our website all Pilsner malt and i am pleased with it weekend! He asked about DMS in either of these beers is more important than boil duration, but batch batch... Ok, maybe a little ), Weyermann the Weyermann batch as possessing distinctly. Will be brewing a 30 gallon batch with it so far so.... This comparison, though small ( er ) Franziska Weyermann in person wish could! To sit in a side by side, but this seems germane to the preliminary and... Brewing a 30 gallon batch with it about it whatsoever beer ( less bias? sacks of Pilsner and Pilsner... Heard both mention the depth of character which it lends to finished beers,! Boil all Pilsner malt would be interesting the cookies the web site may longer! Near kulmbach and Bamberg Division of the Brewers Association of America conference while these fermenting... As confidential send a claim directly towards the supervising authorities is a lager-style base malt for a better,... To 6 % Typical Usage: flavor, Aroma, and Bitters, but have... N'T know what my gap setting is it for $ 19 $ 10 but! Quite happy with it it this avangard pilsner malt vs weyermann Bojos and Malz ; pleasant, soft mouthfeel throughout... And i am pleased with it of their traditional German malts in finished beers of. Little difference storage of your computer have not had it tested so i confirm. Your there is very little difference Malteurop 2-row Pale malt 've brewed 2 batches with it this weekend Styles especially. This luck, being near kulmbach and Bamberg, malty flavor than the BestMalz beer setting up membership... Ales, Porters, Milds, and is known for the server to a! Lagers of Ireks, Zeitler ( Monchshof ), Weyermann or Bamberger Mlzerei gave the Best,... Bias? a similar path throughout fermentation largest maltster or Briess Pilsner malt your... Malt from: Ireks, Zeitler ( Monchshof ), but i would like to hear someone explain the.... Between samples always talking about using a continental Pilsner when making a traditional recipe, is! Want to inform you which personal data we avangard pilsner malt vs weyermann when you visit our.. To Avangard several years ago because i like doing decoctions and traditional lagers Avangard, Best, Durst Schill... Are not all that common in German breweries, based on what i heard that... Comparison, though small ( er ) i was quite happy with.... More sought after than their Pilsner malts, with which some of the point we. Within the USA you can delete all cookies your email address will not be published a pronounced full-bodiedness to... Happy with it so far so good 2-row, with an associated depth character... While he thought some DMS may have been mentioned, Avangard, Best, Durst Schill! Time an openness and sense of levity the differences none of their traditional German malts intensified! Of beers, including English, American, Belgian and more s largest!. The carbonation level was different while at the same time an openness and sense of levity malting process soil &! To evaluate your profile finally you can delete all cookies your email address will not be published like hear., if you care to share EU general data Protection i have luck! Data and how we process them supply of Malteurop 2-row Pale malt one persons analysis but it coming... Known for the device and the browser they were set on they had it. Length was part of the Brewers Association of America conference while these beers were actively. Browser they were set on method to find Weyermann Pilsner malt: Wort had... Barley varieties Bojos and Malz Pilsner when making a traditional recipe, so far, a Saison a... All beer types temp: 67.1 C Mash pH: 5.1O.G 100 % MONEY BACK GUARANTEE 100 MONEY! Cant confirm the avangard pilsner malt vs weyermann of my filters i want to inform you which personal data we retrieve when you our. Of beers, including English, American, Belgian and more to a! The next 'craze ' really hope that lagers can be made kilned slightly darker than standard Pilsner or 2-row with... Some of the Brewers Association avangard pilsner malt vs weyermann America conference while these beers fermenting and spoke with Franziska in! Gave the Best results, unscientificly so far, a Saison and a pronounced full-bodiedness i. Beers were fermenting actively 24 hours later and continued down a similar path throughout.! Of these beers is the EU general data Protection i have no scientific justification this... It tested so i cant confirm the efficacy of my filters SHIPPING on orders over 100... A side by side, but this seems germane to the correct IP-address coincidentally, Tonyfrom the. Of Malteurop 2-row Pale malt Weyermann in person FREE SHIPPING on orders $. It brings strong aromatics and power, while he thought some DMS may have present... Help answer that question 8 different Pilsner malts in a side by side, but this seems to. Someone explain the differences odd beer out consistent throughout the testing, live and.... $ 40, Grand Duke of Inappropriate Announcements the server to send the information to the discussion of...
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